Highlights from this week:
- Soft start to Spring
- The bright shining star in Australian property
- NZ follows Australasia’s example but will it work?
- Industry leader celebrates a milestone
- What’s in our favourite magazine?
Transcripts:
NZ follows Australasia’s example but will it work? – Bindi Norwell
Kevin: Well there’s certainly a lot of interest always on foreign investment. No matter which country you live in it seems to be a hot topic in terms of whether or not it actually drives up prices. I was interested to note recently, we’ve reported about it in the show about the changes in legislation in New Zealand in the market there endeavouring to restrict foreign buyer activity. Joining me to talk about this the CEO for the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand, Bindi Norwell. Bindi, thank you very much for your time.
Bindi Norwell: Thank you. Good to be here.
Kevin: Yeah, could you just briefly tell us or outline for us the bounds of the new legislation that’s been introduced into the market there with regard to foreign investment in residential property?
Bindi Norwell: Sure so at a higher level, it means that anyone that’s a foreigner at the moment will not be able to purchase a property in New Zealand unless they’re a resident or paying tax in the country and it will be implemented from the 22nd of October this year. Anyone going forward will not be able to purchase a property.
Kevin: So very similar in a lot of ways to what’s happened in Australia. Was the Institute or any other industry body consulted by the government there prior to these restrictions coming in?
Bindi Norwell: Absolutely I mean they went through significant consultation with the industry. I think it went through three readings and we submitted on the consultation. I guess what we thought that it’s probably not going to have very much impact on affordability in New Zealand because the amount of properties that are bought by foreign buyers is so low. It’s around 2.8% across the country. We thought that actually it’s probably not the right thing to do for New Zealand but they have implemented it now. When they did go out to consultation, they got feedback on a number of issues and it’s good to see that they listened to that consultation.
Bindi Norwell: Originally, foreign investors wouldn’t be able to purchase new built and so they thought that this might impede the housing markets in New Zealand. They changed that strategy and so foreign buyers can actually purchase new builds and new developments going forward.
Kevin: Yeah, it seems to be wherever it’s introduced they always tout it as helping out to make properties more affordable. It’s really just a political stance almost appealing to voters saying well we are doing something about affordability when in a fact what you just pointed out there is it has very little effect on affordability.
Bindi Norwell: That’s right and I said it’s such a low amount of properties that are bought from foreign buyers and this huge amount of work that goes into this legislation and actually going forward now trying to identify foreign buyers as well. I think that yeah, I mean it definitely has an impact on the amount of work but not really an impact on affordability.
Kevin: Is the investment predominantly in Auckland? I mean that’s what we hear out of New Zealand is that all the focus seems to be on Auckland. Is that the case with foreign buyers?
Bindi Norwell: A significant portion of houses that are bought of that 2.8% are in Auckland but they’re also in places like Queenstown that’s very appealing to foreign buyers as well. I guess it is spread across the country but primarily in Auckland and places like Queenstown.
Kevin: You’re the peak body in New Zealand. What are you hearing amongst your colleagues industry professionals about the likely impact of these restrictions?
Bindi Norwell: Well I think that people are feeling like it’s not going to have significant impact on affordability. I think the industry at the moment, the real estate industry is trying to now prepare for the implications of it and really understanding how do we actually in a practical level make sure that we’re complying with the law. I guess this is for the key focus now of the industry. We know now this is in place so now we’ve got to help prepare the industry to try, and to comply with that new legislation.
Kevin: Who will be held responsibility if the declarations aren’t done correctly? I mean are the real estate agents going to be the ones who will need to be the policemen on this?
Bindi Norwell: Well I mean I guess it’s quite complex. At the end of the day, it’s up to the individual that is actually going to purchase the property to demonstrate and specify where they’re from that they’re a foreign buyer or they’re from New Zealand tax or New Zealand resident. The onus is really up to the individual to prove it and the legal entity that they’re working will have to go through a level of due diligence. So far, I guess real estate agents will have a role to play as well to make sure they know who they’re dealing with but the actual legislation really hits on the individual person and the legal ingenue.
Kevin: It’s simply a matter of a declaration form that needs to be signed by the buyer to say that they’re not a foreign buyer. Is that correct and in the absence of that in Australia there are special penalties in the absence of the form being presented it’s assumed that they are a foreign buyer. Is that right?
Bindi Norwell: Yes so everyone that’s going to purchase a house will need to fill out a declaration that’s the way we understand. We met with the OIO this week actually to talk about this process. The people will need to fill in that declaration. They’ll need to sign it and obviously prove it with their legal professions as well when they get to the actual sale transaction so yes everyone will do that part of the process.
Kevin: Yeah Bindi great insight there. Thank you so much. I understand you’ve come out of a meeting. We appreciate you giving us your time today. Thank you very much.
Bindi Norwell: No problem. Thanks. Okay.
Industry leader celebrates a milestone – Janusz Hooker
Kevin: Well there’s a very big birthday coming up in the real estate world on the 20th of September. Ninety years ago, LJ Hooker was born, and of course, that’s one of the biggest brands now, not only in Australia but southern hemisphere and around the world, in terms of its dealings with consumers and the number of agents that they have in their business. Joining me to talk about that is the LJ Hooker chairman, Janusz Hooker. Janusz, welcome to the show and thanks for your time.
Janusz Hooker: Thanks, Kevin. It’s a pleasure to be back on your show.
Kevin: It is, it’s always delightful to talk to you, and the reason I am delighted is because, it’s a great tribute to you and the company that there’s a person with the name Hooker still in the company. Not only that, but as a chairman. Must be a proud moment for you?
Janusz Hooker: Yeah, 90 years is a big achievement for any company, anywhere in the world, and to be sort of front and centre and dealing with consumers, and continually innovating, and that’s what we’ve been doing for 90 years, so it’s great to be here.
Kevin: You produced a really nice book too, to celebrate the occasion. A wonderful history, not only of the company but of real estate in Australia. It’s not surprising to me, but there have been a lot of benchmark moments for the company, that have actually become benchmark indicators for the industry, really.
Janusz Hooker: Yeah, it’s got a very colourful past, of really contributing to building Australia in the post World War II immigration boom that we had in Australia. So it was the first business to not only have the first real estate agency network across Australia in the ’50s, but then was the first to introduce real estate investment trusts, which is now a hundred billion dollar industry in Australia, and making Australia a world leader. And ended up building one in five homes for the better part of last, second half of the last century. Really contributing to easing the housing crisis. So, it’s pretty amazing to see what the business did. It was not just an agency.
Kevin: If LJ was your grandfather, is that correct? Have I got that-
Janusz Hooker: That is correct, and I was the only one in the LJ Hooker clan to be given the initials, so I’m the living LJ at the moment.
Kevin: Yeah. If LJ, the original LJ, were still with us, and sadly he’s not, what do you think he would say would be one of the proudest moments, looking back?
Janusz Hooker: For his business?
Kevin: Yes.
Janusz Hooker: I think he’s … He was an orphan. So, his proudest moments were always giving back. So, you know him addressing the affordable housing crisis in the country, him in his philanthropic endeavours. Anything that was giving back in nation building was something that he’d be proud. And the other proud thing, why business was so successful and is to this day, is that his famous quote is, “Real estate is not just about property. It’s about people.” And the focus on the people that worked for him and under the brand today, 7,000 of them, and then all of the customers that we served over the generations. So, it’s really giving back to the people.
Kevin: I’m glad you highlighted the point there about what he tried to do for affordability, and to make homes much easier for people to get, because that was a big influence reading the book, a big influence on the way he directed the company, wasn’t it?
Janusz Hooker: Yes it was. I mean, after the second World War, he had the first 20 years of his business from 1928 to sort of the mid-forties, which was a struggle. You know, Great Depression, World War. But afterwards, when the Australian government opened the immigration gates, there was over a million people coming into the country in less than five years. So you can imagine the housing crisis they had right then. So he went about turning his agency also into the most prolific home builder of the time.
Kevin: Yeah. Oh, I mean, some benchmark locations down on the Sunshine Coast, sorry, down on the Gold Coast. As an example, even a lot of streets named after LJ.
Janusz Hooker: There is a Hooker Boulevard there.
Kevin: Yep.
Janusz Hooker: Yes, indeed. And many islands were transformed, and in Brisbane in the ’60s there, they built Centenary Estates, which is now home to 35,000 people, and it was just farmland there, very close to the CBD.
Kevin: If he were to join us now, and look at how the industry is with things like social media and the internet, which he wouldn’t have even known about in his time, I mean I wonder what he would think about the direction of real estate nowadays?
Janusz Hooker: Well, interestingly, just towards the end of his life, he passed away in ’76, computers were starting to be becoming a real event. There was IBM and actually in Hooker House, down there in the Sydney CBD. As early as 1978, the company installed computers and connected head office to all of its offices, which at that point were all company owned, the majority of it. And it was the first incarnation of an intranet in the country. And it was pretty cutting edge at the time.
Janusz Hooker: So, he was an innovator at heart, and he would spend no less than two or three months every other year travelling the world, which then was a big achievement because it would take you two or three days to get to Europe or the US. So he was always looking for world best practise to bring back to Australia and provide the consumer with those.
Kevin: Yeah I think I remember reading in the book there, he talked about one of the journeys to, I think it was to the UK, and he talked about how long it took, and he was rejoicing with the fact that it was so fast.
Janusz Hooker: Yes, it was, it was fast. Yeah.
Kevin: It was only a matter of what, five days? It was quite incredible story.
Janusz Hooker: Yeah. I think that …
Kevin: It’s interesting to hear you talk about computers, because I’m actually old enough to remember when computers first came in as well, and I remember the first lot of computers that we had in our offices, had to be all closed off dust proof rooms. But you look at them now, we carry them around, as iPads and even our phones, have a lot more capability than those early computers.
Janusz Hooker: Well, what you’re carrying in your hand right now, which is also probably water resistant, is more powerful than the Cray computer, which then used to take up half a floor and weighed about 20 tonnes. So, it’s pretty amazing what you can hold in your hand now. It’s really empowered the agents and all of our franchise owners, because right now they can be mobile 24/7.
Kevin: Well, it’s a great moment in history for your company, LJ Hooker, and also for the industry generally. A very, very healthy environment to have companies like yours. Janusz, I really appreciate you giving us your time. Congratulations to you and all the team, you know the thousands of people that work under the LJ Hooker brand. I wish you well for the future and another 90 years ahead.
Janusz Hooker: Well, you know you can’t take away heritage, and as long as we continue serving the customer like we have, and innovating, and delivering what they want, we’ll be here for another 90 years easy.
Kevin: Lovely talking to you, Janusz Hooker, thanks very much for your time.
Janusz Hooker: Thank you.
What’s in our favourite magazine? – Sarah Megginson
Kevin: I’m quite often asked by investors whether it’s best to invest for capital growth or return, return on your investment. That’s the question that’s posed in the current edition of Your Investment Property Magazine, and to talk to me about that and some of the learnings that have come out of this exploration, Sarah Megginson, from Your Investment Property Magazine.
Kevin: G’day, Sarah. How are you doing?
Sarah Megginson: I’m great. Thanks, Kev.
Kevin: The new issue has just been released. It was released only about 24 hours ago. So if you’re getting it by post, you would already have it, but have a look for it in all of the popular outlets, particularly at airports. I notice it’s there.
Kevin: Sarah, the front cover talks about this question, doesn’t it? I mean, it’s a question that comes up quite often.
Sarah Megginson: Yes, absolutely. I think it’s one of the biggest questions around property investing that people ask themselves when they’re first planning how they’re going to make it work. Obviously, at the moment, in the big capital cities, it takes a lot of money to get into the market and the yields are really low. In some of the suburbs of Sydney, you’re getting 2 or 3% yields, so that can be really hard to hold on to. So that’s kind of why we’ve attacked this issue, in this issue. Should I say, attached this topic in this issue. Really kind of break it down and look at the differences between investing for cashflow, investing for yield, what kind of investment strategy it suits, and what are the risks of both?
Kevin: Yeah, I do think it has a lot to do with your tolerance for risk, and also what age you’re at. People of an older age like me would probably think, well, maybe I need more of a return on my investment as opposed to capital growth.
Sarah Megginson: Absolutely. I think you hit the nail on the head there. And we’ve got another story in this issue which is about that very topic of investing through the ages and how your strategy changes as you get older. I think, obviously, that the closer you’re getting to retirement, well, either the less risky you can afford to be because you can’t afford to lose it all. But for some people, that’s when they really step their risk appetite up because they want to get some really good results before they retire, so there’s really a lot to think about.
Sarah Megginson: It’s so true that there’s no one size fits all solution. It changes from person to person, depending on your budget and your situation and your investment timeline and so many different factors, so you’ve got to kind of really create a personalised strategy for you.
Kevin: You do, because things like health even come into it, how long you’re going to work, what sort of wage you’re on. Because the banks, once you reach a certain age, they really just won’t lend to you anyway, so you’ve really got to work off your own capital or your own savings, and maybe even what you’ve got in your superannuation scheme. But that comes with different problems as well because it’s harder to borrow nowadays in your super as well.
Sarah Megginson: Yeah, that’s the thing. And the goalposts keep changing, that something that may have worked even two or three years ago might not work anymore, which is why you’ve got to really keep proactively looking at what you’re doing, looking at the results you’re getting.
Sarah Megginson: I just recently, this year, sold two properties that 12 months ago I wasn’t expecting to sell at all, but every year I do a check-in with my advisor and we looked at it and I went, “You know what? They’re not exactly serving my needs anymore,” so we made that decision. You’ve just always got to be open to what’s the best decision you can make right now, I think.
Kevin: Yeah, I do think, and you’ll find a lot of insights, great insights in this article in the latest edition of Your Investment Property Magazine, which I now have a copy of. I’ve scanned over the article and I think it’s absolutely sensational.
Kevin: So if you’re at that stage, you’re questioning what you should be doing about your investments, you’ll find a lot of answers inside the current edition. That’s the cover story, so make sure you pick up your copy of Your Investment Property Magazine. It’s out now.
Kevin: Sarah, thank you. I’ll catch you in the podcast. We’ll talk in a lot more detail. The podcast is coming out any day, so watch out for it right here at Real Estate Talk, and we’re going to do a video this week on that topic, aren’t we, about investing through the ages, Sarah.
Sarah Megginson: Yeah, I think it’s something that people often don’t really think about too much, their age and how that impacts their investment strategy. You can kind of set something up and keep going along that track for a while without realising that maybe your situation has changed and it’s not quite working for you anymore, so it’s a really good topic.
Kevin: Pick it up in the latest edition of Your Investment Property Magazine. Watch our Real Estate Talk for our podcast and videos that are coming out in relation to all of those articles as well.
Kevin: Sarah, thanks for your time.
Sarah Megginson: Thanks, Kev.
The bright shining star in Australian property – Antonia Mercorella
Kevin: Well, in a market that’s topsy turvy, particularly if you focus very much on Sydney and Melbourne which most people seem to do, the Queensland market is the bright shining star. Joining me to talk about what’s happening in Queensland in general and I suppose Brisbane specifically, I’m joined by Antonia Mercorella from the real estate institute in Queensland. Antonia, thank you for your time.
Antonia: You’re very welcome, Kevin.
Kevin: I want to throw some light on this because there have been some really good stories that sometimes get overshadowed by big dips in Sydney, and we’ve seen this historically where the Sydney market will take a big nose dive and then everyone thinks that property around Australia is headed for the doldrums.
Antonia: Kevin, absolutely. I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s very frustrating actually. Unfortunately, the media does tend to focus very much on what’s happening in Sydney and in Melbourne. And to be honest, those are outliers, those cities. They don’t represent the rest of the property market across Australia and certainly our property market is travelling along at a very healthy and good pace. And it is quite frustrating when that is overshadowed by reports about what Sydney and Melbourne are doing.
Kevin: Yeah, I’ve been talking about the Queensland market for quite some time, particularly Brisbane. And how it’s performed well consistently. It may not have those huge peaks that we see in Sydney, but with that comes the inevitable downfall. And we’ve seen the Queensland market, Brisbane move ahead around about six percent a year which it seems to be continuing to do, Antonia.
Antonia: That’s exactly right. So what we’ve really been seeing now for consecutive years is it’s the very reliable and very sustainable growth. It’s actually been in the range of somewhere between two to four percent on average and that’s now been consistently over the last three or four years. And if we look at the last twelve months to June 2018, we’ve seen growth of about 2.5%. So we’re going within that very healthy range. But as you say, our market, we’re not seeing that frenzied, accelerated growth that perhaps has been experienced in Sydney specifically. But we like to say that our market is reliable and it’s consistent. And I think that’s a good thing from both the buyer and the seller perspective. Gives you confidence and you don’t have that risk of the boom and bust cycle that can be experienced in those red hot markets.
Kevin: Yeah, let’s give an example of exactly what we mean here. Let’s pick one particular suburb on the north side. Let’s have a look at Kedron. And I’ll pick that one out of your top ten growth suburbs in a recent report only because it’s such an outstanding performer. To give you the dynamics here, 4.9% quarterly sales growth. Yet if you look at the one year change, it’s 11%. But over the five years it’s been 44%.
Antonia: Correct.
Kevin: So they’re quite outstanding figures.
Antonia: Absolutely.
Kevin: And when you look at demand, sorry to dominate this, but it’s something that I am passionate about. But there are only five houses for sale currently in Kedron in that median of 700,000 to 750,000, median there 744. That augers well for future growth as well.
Antonia: Absolutely. And I think that’s a really good point. Obviously when we talk averages, the growth is quite modest. But you’re right, if you start to look a bit deeper at the data and going to specific suburbs, you’re quite right. There is some suburbs where we’re seeing double digit growth and certainly if you look over the longer term, the five year mark in particular, you’re going to see some really, really healthy numbers there. And of course we need to be really careful when we look at property activity, looking at a quarter and even if we’re to be honest, even twelve months isn’t probably long term enough. And so I think that five year figure is always the safer one and there’s some outstanding results in that batch.
Kevin: Yeah, and you don’t really have to spend a lot of money either. I’m looking at another one of your graphs, the top ten highest value suburbs. And I look here at Brookfield, with a median price of 1.6 million. Sure it’s up there at the top end, but if you look at the growth as well. One year change 15.2% but over five years it’s been 17.8%. I mean that’s reasonable growth.
Antonia: Absolutely. Yeah, and Brookfield is obviously look it is at that higher end. There’s some lovely prestigious properties, but also you need to keep in mind for listeners that aren’t familiar with Brisbane, you are getting so much for your money. I mean if you think about what that sort of money would get you in Sydney, it wouldn’t get you much. Let’s be perfectly honest. So the value in your dollar just goes so much further here in Brisbane.
Kevin: Yeah, well there’s another suburb we’ll pick as well as a good example, Brackenridge, very affordable at 502,000. With growth over the last five years of 24.6%. Not to be sneezed at. You wouldn’t get that kind of return if you put that money in the bank.
Antonia: No. That’s exactly right. And I think this is where we really want to encourage people to, you really need to look a little bit beyond the TV reports and the radio reports. You really need to get access to the data, delve into the suburbs, take a look at those figures. What is the annual growth? What does the five year growth look like? Work out what your budget is. Have a look at neighbouring suburbs. If you can’t afford your suburbs of choice, take a look at the neighbouring suburbs. And I think we’ve been saying this for some time now, many commentators are saying Brisbane is now the city to watch. There is lots of really exciting large scale projects that are happening and of course the latest census data also tells us that more and more people are moving to Brisbane. So I think there’s an enormous opportunity in our marketplace where there’s still so many great affordable options.
Kevin: Absolutely. Always good talking to you, Antonia Mercorella from the REIQ. Antonia, thank you for your time.
Antonia: Thank you, Kevin.
Soft start to Spring – Andrew Wilson
Kevin: They do say, don’t they, that Spring is the peak selling time when we get a bit of an indication about how healthy the market is. Here are at the end of the first month into Spring, the end of September.
Kevin: Joining me to have a quick look at the first month into September, Dr. Andrew Wilson, from My Housing Market, a regular contributor for us. We look at the auction numbers every Monday in a live stream on Facebook. You can watch us there 12:30 every Monday, when Dr. Andrew Wilson gives us an excellent wrap-up on the cap city markets and the auction activity over the weekend. Hello, Andrew.
Andrew: Yes, hello, Kevin.
Kevin: Nice to be talking to you in an audio sense as opposed to seeing you, although I always enjoy seeing you. It’s always a bit of a thrill.
Andrew: That’s very nice of you to say.
Kevin: That’s a pleasure, mate. Andrew, here we are, well into Spring now. What’s your feeling about the Spring market … a bit of mixed result?
Andrew: It’s, I guess, no surprise that our Spring bounce as we usually see at this time of the year hasn’t been the type of bounce we’ve had in recent seasons, Kevin. The key driver of housing markets, of course, are interest rates and we have had interest rates on hold now for over two years. Of course, that’s a record period.
Andrew: Even though it’s been a little bit of mixed ups and downs from the banks in terms of their mortgage rates, those recent increases by the banks have really been quite small. There for existing customers and banks are still quite happy to offer good incentives for new customers. They’ve gotta maintain their profitability.
Andrew: In a market environment where we are certainly seeing fewer listings and that’s been the lesson so far in Spring, that numbers are well down on last spring in terms of listings, and of course, clearance rates are down as well. The numbers are certainly higher than Winter. We’ve just gotta get used to a more normal environment for our housing markets now that we’ve lost that extraordinary drive from falling and low interest rates of recent years.
Kevin: It’s interesting, Andrew, that when you look at the results that are coming out of each of the cap cities, it highlights, as the market bounces around, just how diverse it is across Australia where you see … Melbourne’s still performing reasonably well … some very patchy performance out of Sydney. Brisbane seems to be growing, but not probably as much as everyone would have predicted. Adelaide’s ticking along okay and even Perth seems to be having a bit of a recovery. It’s all over the place, really, isn’t it?
Andrew: To some degree, we have seen a convergence, Kevin. You’re not seeing those sky-high results we saw from the Melbourne, Sydney and Canberra markets recently. Those markets have come back to the past concerns of their clearance rates. We’ll see the same result in house price growth. I think that house price growth would generally be a couple of per cent above or below the line year on year … the higher prices in Spring and Autumn, lower prices in Summer and Winter. This is the seasonal effect. It’s because we don’t those external drivers anymore to be able to push up prices to higher levels, according to local factors, of course … that sort of convergence that we will see in prices growth.
Andrew: We can still, I guess, identify the better-performing markets and it’s no doubt that the Melbourne market. It’s up and running in Spring. Levels are, as I said before, lower than they were a year ago. Prices growth will certainly be a lot lower in Melbourne than it was a year ago, but it’s still tracking in quite a comfortable market, I think, to sellers, although it’s a much more balanced market with buyers having more choices … not as many choices as a year ago, but they certainly have a bit more leverage in the market place.
Andrew: I think sellers are becoming a bit more realistic with their price expectations, as well. That Sydney market certainly been… still a little slow over Spring, Kevin … hasn’t quite picked up at the level we would have expected. Listing numbers are flattish and so are clearance rates quite flat. Inner suburban areas are doing well, but the outer suburbs really are continuing to move sideways. I think we’re seeing much more activity in the private market, the private-
Kevin: Private treaty, yeah.
Andrew: … sales rather than the auction sales in those suburbs.
Kevin: Interesting, Andrew. I sometimes think as I work through Auction Insider with you … I get a distinct impression … Mind you, you’ve not told me this, but the Melbourne market seems to be quite mature … mature in terms of how they look at auctions, how they process the auctions, but also how the market is, so whether that’s through buyers and sellers, we get a lot more volatility in the Sydney market.
Andrew: Absolutely, Kevin, and we can see it in the results in Melbourne and it’s a very even spread … not a lot of losers in terms of lower clearance rates in Melbourne. The only one that’s been a little bit mixed is the southeastern suburbs of Melbourne, which is a bit counterintuitive, because that’s, I guess, the market where medians are lowest. Your prices lowest and we’ve had a lot of first-time buyer activity in Melbourne over the past year. It hasn’t seemed to have worked its way into higher clearance rates in the southeast. Most other areas are doing quite well.
Andrew: Really, the price reflections on Melbourne which have seen median prices down over the past year … I think it’s more got to do with the property mix that is being measured. There’s no doubt that the inner south, inner east and inner city, higher-priced areas in Melbourne came off the boil over the past year. I think largely that’s what we’re seeing impacting the models of prices growth looking like it’s falling. I think we’ll see it pick up in those higher-priced areas over Spring … seeing some early signs, but most areas are doing okay.
Andrew: Most are reasonably happy with their prospects in the marketplace in Melbourne over Spring. I think most markets are the same. Possible exceptions, as I said, Kevin … Sydney at the moment, still bit mixed, but Brisbane, not too bad. Numbers are around about where they were a year ago, a little bit lower. Adelaide certainly not as strong as it was a year ago, and the same for Canberra, but still a good, balanced market, and as you said, the Perth market is off its lows now and starting to move ahead, but gradually.
Kevin: Always good talking to you, Dr. Andrew Wilson, from My Housing Market. Thanks for your time, Andrew.
Andrew: Thank you, Kevin.