{"id":7172,"date":"2016-02-26T12:00:37","date_gmt":"2016-02-26T01:00:37","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/realestatetalk.com.au\/?p=7172"},"modified":"2016-02-26T12:00:37","modified_gmt":"2016-02-26T01:00:37","slug":"more-myths-go-under-the-microscope-investors-pay-for-unused-infrastructure","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/channels.realty.com.au\/realtytalk\/more-myths-go-under-the-microscope-investors-pay-for-unused-infrastructure\/","title":{"rendered":"More myths go under the microscope + Investors pay for unused infrastructure"},"content":{"rendered":"

 
\nProperty success stories are everywhere but we have to warn that there are many stories we don\u2019t hear about because there are many people who fail.\u00a0 So what makes a successful property investor? \u00a0That\u2019s what we discuss with Andrew Mirams<\/strong><\/a> who has seen it all.
\nRegular guest Michael Yardney<\/strong><\/a> shoots holes in the theory that property investing is all about cash flow. He says rather we should be looking at it as a high growth low yield investment strategy. He explains more today.
\nDr Andrew Wilson<\/strong> defends the stats we all rely on and while they seem to differ, there are some ways to look at them that will reveal the true story. Andrew tells us more.
\nGeorge Raptis<\/strong>, a seasoned investor himself and a property strategist from Sydney, talks to us about one of the biggest mistakes he sees investors make. At the same time, we discuss the difference between buyers agents and strategists.
\nTime heals all wounds \u2013 or so they say. Jan Somers<\/strong> says that it does take time but rather than using time to cover mistakes, why not look at time being an important element in your strategy.
\nInvesting where you live because you are comfortable with that location, you know the facilities and what is going on, sounds all fine but as Jane Slack-Smith<\/strong> will point out there are some shortcomings that may not be that evident.
\nAlso this week we encourage you to go back to the basics, more important information on depreciation and we tell you about an area in Australia where investors are paying for infrastructure they are not using.
\n <\/p>\n

Transcripts:<\/strong><\/h4>\n

George Raptis<\/h3>\n

Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 This is a fascinating subject. I love talking about it because it\u2019s something that a lot of property investors totally miss out on, and that is the importance and the value of bringing people who have already experienced a lot of the things you\u2019re going to experience along the way, and that\u2019s building a team, because so many people think that you can learn a lot more by doing everything yourself. That\u2019s a great way to lose some money.
\nGeorge Raptis joins me from Metropole Properties in Sydney.
\nGood day, George.
\nGeorge:<\/b>\u00a0 Hi, Kevin. How are you going?
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Good, mate. How often do you see that, George, where someone thinks, \u201cI\u2019ll do it myself; I\u2019m going to learn a lot as I get along the way\u201d?
\nGeorge:<\/b>\u00a0 I see it a lot, unfortunately. Sometimes people think they can do it all themselves, but I\u2019m always a big advocate of surrounding yourself with a team. For example, if you look at myself personally, albeit I\u2019ve been in properties for many, many years \u2013 I don\u2019t manage my own properties, I don\u2019t do the maintenance on them, I don\u2019t do my own tax, that sort of thing.
\nI guess, for me, I learned a very valuable lesson, and that was somebody said to me, \u201cGeorge, if you think it\u2019s expensive hiring a professional, wait until you hire an amateur.\u201d
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 There is another saying, too, that a good friend of both of ours uses all the time, and that is that you should surround yourself with people who are better at doing things than you are, and if, in fact, you\u2019re the smartest person on your team, then you have a real big problem.
\nGeorge:\u00a0 <\/b>Exactly right. You need to surround yourself with a team of professionals, Kevin, definitely.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Let\u2019s look at property, then. On your team, who would you have? There are the no-brainers, like you need an accountant who is familiar with property.
\nGeorge:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes, you definitely need a good tax-savvy accountant. You need a smart lawyer, someone who can help you with asset protection, a proficient mortgage broker, someone who can sit down with you and go through finance strategies, not just get you pre-approved for pre-approval\u2019s sake, and obviously, an independent property investment strategist, not someone who sells property or who has a vested interest in helping the project marketers and the developers of the world, but someone who is independent and truly on your side.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes. Let\u2019s have a look at a few of the issues that you raise there because they\u2019re quite real. That one that you talked about getting someone who is a property strategist as opposed to just a buyer\u2019s agent who may, in fact, even be representing the properties that they\u2019re suggesting you should buy.
\nGeorge:<\/b>\u00a0 Correct. What\u2019s happening is, unfortunately, if someone is representing somebody else and trying to push somebody\u2019s else\u2019s agenda with regard to offloading off-the-plan type properties or house and land packages \u2013 that sort of thing \u2013 I always say to potential clients, \u201cHow can somebody like that give you untarnished or independent advice when they have a big carrot dangling at the end of the day?\u201d
\nYou really need someone who doesn\u2019t have a vested interest, somebody who is going to give you truly independent and unbiased advice. Like we say, maybe sometimes you also need an unreasonable friend, someone who is going to tell not what you want to hear, but something that is actual matter of fact.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes, to tell you the truth, as it is. Also, when you\u2019re looking at a solicitor, I\u2019ve always found it\u2019s good to make sure you have a solicitor who understands or at least has some affiliation with solicitors in other states because property laws do vary state to state.
\nGeorge:\u00a0 <\/b>Yes, they do. Unfortunately, we can\u2019t use a Sydney lawyer to do conveyancing, for example, for purchasing a property in Brisbane, and that sort of thing. But they need to be au fait<\/i> with what\u2019s happening up there. Also, a lot of these solicitors, like you said, have colleagues and affiliates in various other states.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes. I know as an agent, I used to roll my eyes every time if we had someone from another state who said, \u201cI have my local solicitor who will handle it for me.\u201d I\u2019d know straightaway that we\u2019re in for trouble because contracts are so different state to state.
\nGeorge:<\/b>\u00a0 They are. A property-savvy conveyancer is also very important. I\u2019ve seen over the years where people have missed out on potentially really good deals as far as purchasing property is concerned because the solicitor they were using would be litigating in court all day, and their file would be underneath a pile of other files and they\u2019ll get around to it when they can. Conveyancing wasn\u2019t really top of mind as far as their priorities were concerned.
\nA good firm that\u2019s very property-conveyancing-savvy is really important to have on your team.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 George, just to wrap it up, I guess the big lesson here is certainly learn from having other people around you but don\u2019t think that you can learn on the job. That\u2019s the quickest way to fail and actually lose money.
\nGeorge:<\/b>\u00a0 That\u2019s right. Exactly right, Kevin.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 George Raptis from Metropole Properties in Sydney.
\nGeorge, thanks for your time. I\u2019ll let you get back to you and your team.
\nGeorge:\u00a0 <\/b>Thank you, Kevin. Have a good day.
\n <\/p>\n

Jane Slack-Smith<\/h3>\n

Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 There\u2019s always debate about how much knowledge you need to have about a property if it\u2019s going to become a good investment and whether you really need to personally know the area intimately. I guess with the Internet nowadays, so many things can be done at arm\u2019s length, but is that such a good idea if you\u2019re a property investor?
\nI\u2019m going to talk to Jane Slack-Smith now from YourPropertySuccess.com.au.
\nHi, Jane.
\nJane:<\/b>\u00a0 Hi, Kevin.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Nice to be talking to you again. Jane, your view on this? Do you really have to know the area?
\nJane:\u00a0 <\/b>I think there are two sides to this story. I speak to people all the time who say they\u2019re going to invest where they live because they know the area so well, and when I ask them a few quick questions about how well they know the area, like what\u2019s the median price, what\u2019s the percentage of renters and therefore, what is the vacancy rate, and just general conversational questions that I\u2019d ask any investor, they can\u2019t answer those questions.
\nIf I flip that to your question, which is do you need to know an area well, I think you need to know it well but as you pointed out, you can get a lot of that information off the Internet.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes, I think there are two things here. You need to know if you\u2019re going to live there and live there with your family, but maybe you need to know it differently if you\u2019re looking it as an investment. There are certain other things that you need to touch on if it\u2019s an investment property.
\nJane:<\/b>\u00a0 Absolutely. As an investment, what you need to know about an area is completely different to if you\u2019re a homeowner, as you pointed out. It\u2019s not about lifestyle choices that you might make for yourself; it\u2019s about is that property going to make you money as an investor? The key criteria changes.
\nWe want to know who is the typical type of person for the area, which means we need to understand the demographics. We understand what\u2019s the typical type of property so that we can actually find a property that suits the majority of people who want to rent in that area. As an investor, that\u2019s what you\u2019re after usually, the long-term investment.
\nHowever, I do think that you do have to visit the area before you purchase.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Let\u2019s talk about that. When you do visit the area, give us some tips on how you should be looking at it, because obviously, you\u2019re going to visit it. You won\u2019t be living there, so therefore how do we assess it\u2019s suitability as an investment?
\nJane:<\/b>\u00a0 You can pick up 80% to 90% of an area\u2019s information from the Internet. Things that I like to understand are is there a good area of town or a bad area of town? You can pick that up through real estate agents\u2019 descriptions of \u201cIt\u2019s in the golden triangle\u201d or \u201cIt\u2019s on the right side of Parramatta Road\u201d for instance.
\nBut when we\u2019re talking about actually visiting feet on ground, it\u2019s about walking around the area at different times of the night and day, calling into the local shops, having a chat to the pharmacist or the newsagent, and just getting a feel for what that area is like \u2013 looking at how well-kept the streets are, the type of cars that are in the garages, getting a feel for are kids running around happily in the park or is everything locked up at 6:00 and the locks are on the doors?
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 That\u2019s such good advice. I think, too, walking around the area, do it at different times of the day. Do it, not at sun-up, but certainly in the morning, do it at night, just to get a feel for what does happen in the area. What do people do in the area? How do they live there?
\nJane:<\/b>\u00a0 Absolutely. Even simple things \u2013 like I know real estate agents who know that there might be specific traffic noise associated with a nearby industrial site or even airport noise will coordinate the open for inspections at the time of days when that noise isn\u2019t there. Then all of a sudden, someone is shocked by the fact that they bought behind a quarry, for instance. Walking around and getting a feel at different times of day I think is really important.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Indeed. Any other tips you\u2019d like to give us in terms of understanding the area? What are the key things that you look for when you\u2019re assessing an area?
\nJane:<\/b>\u00a0 I\u2019m a long-term buy-and-hold investor, so I\u2019m looking for proof that the area has been popular in the past. I\u2019m looking at past capital growth and the fact that there has been some interest in the area. But I\u2019m also looking at anticipation of the growth in the future because I want my investment to grow in value.
\nI want an economy that is stimulated. I want a multi-economy, so I want to have different interest groups or industries in that area. I\u2019m also looking at population growth and I\u2019m looking at income growth. I want an area that\u2019s moving ahead, which means that in the future, people can afford more for the property that I have.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Jane Slack-Smith, always great talking to you. Jane, of course, from YourPropertySuccess.com.au.
\nJane, all the best and thanks for your time.
\nJane:<\/b>\u00a0 Thanks, Kevin.
\n <\/p>\n

Michael Yardney<\/a><\/h3>\n

Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 As we continue to dispel some of our myths, I\u2019m going to catch up with Michael Yardney<\/a> right now.
\nHi, Michael.
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 Hi, Kevin.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Michael, I wanted to talk to you about another myth that I\u2019ve heard, and that is that cash flow is the most important thing when it comes to investing. What would be your reaction to that?
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 Kevin, the crux of my successful property investment strategy is that residential real estate is actually a high growth but relatively low yield investment. Residential real estate doesn\u2019t give a lot of cash flow.
\nThere are four ways you can make money through property, and I think most investors get it wrong how they do it.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Could you tell us how they\u2019re getting it wrong?
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 The first way is capital growth. Your property appreciates in value over time. The second way you make money out of a property is the rental return. That\u2019s the cash flow that you\u2019re asking me about. The third way is accelerated or forced growth. This is where you manufacture some capital growth through doing renovations or doing a development. The fourth way is tax benefits, things like negative gearing or depreciation.
\nOut of all of these, in my mind, capital growth is the most important. I know not everyone agrees with my strategy. In fact, when it comes to property investment, you\u2019ll hear the two conflicting stories bandied around.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 We\u2019ve talked about your five-stranded approach and we\u2019ve featured it in the show before, but let\u2019s go back over a couple of those points that you\u2019ve mentioned there, Michael.
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 The reason behind it is because I believe that the first stage of building property investment wealth is by building your asset base. There is no doubt that you have to watch your cash flow. The reason most people don\u2019t become financially independent is because they spend more than they earn, so you have to get cash flow management right.
\nBut having said that, residential real estate doesn\u2019t give you cash flow. I see people who come to me and say, \u201cMichael, I\u2019d like to buy a property investment and I want it to pay my school fees,\u201d \u201cMichael, I\u2019d like to buy some real estate and it\u2019ll pay for my holiday.\u201d It doesn\u2019t work that way. You have to let it grow.
\nThat\u2019s why the five-stranded approach is to find properties that outperform the averages with regard to capital growth. Once you have an asset base, Kevin, then you lower your loan-to-value ratios and then you turn it into cash flow.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Michael, are there any times when you actually would look for a cash flow positive property?
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 Sure, Kevin. Once you build a substantial asset base and you transition to being into the cash flow stage where you\u2019re starting to live off your properties, then often I\u2019ve had commercial real estate but not residential real estate looking for positive cash flow.
\nThe problem is you can never turn a cash flow positive property into a high growth property because of its geographic location, because of where it is. But you can actually achieve both high returns \u2013 cash flow \u2013 as well as capital growth by buying a high growth property and then adding value, doing some renovations, doing something that increases its cash flow. This will bring you high rent, extra depreciation, and that converts your high growth, relatively low cash flow property into a strong cash flow positive property.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 That is part of your strategy \u2013 isn\u2019t it? \u2013 to look for those sorts of properties where you can add some value and get some extra income.
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 Definitely because I don\u2019t want to downplay the importance of cash flow. That\u2019s what gets investors stuck, when there are those periods like we get every cycle where there is no capital growth for a while or, in fact, property values drop a little bit or during those high interest rate periods. So you have to manage your cash flow, but you do that by budgeting and by having a financial buffer, having something set aside in a line of credit or an offset account to see you through those lean times.
\nBut if you buy a property that gives you more rent return, higher cash flow, in general, you have to forego either security because you bought a property that maybe isn\u2019t as secure because of its location or you\u2019re going to forego capital growth. In property investment, there are three things \u2013 there is cash flow, there is growth, and there is security. You can\u2019t have all three.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 It\u2019s interesting listening to you, Michael, and reflecting back on a lot of the myths that we\u2019ve been dispelling, a lot of them come about because people don\u2019t have a strategy or they don\u2019t have a plan. Here we\u2019ve looked at one in isolation \u2013 that\u2019s cash flow \u2013 and you\u2019ve demonstrated to us that that\u2019s not right because it\u2019s not part of the overall strategy.
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 Correct, Kevin. Or they have a flawed strategy. When you look at the statistics, we know that less than 8% of investors buy more than three properties. In other words, 92% actually never get past their second property. That never gets them the wealth that they require. In fact, 50% of people who get into property sell up in the first five years. Most property investors fail because they have the wrong strategy, a flawed strategy.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 I know that you have a series of seminars coming up shortly. No doubt, this will be part of that discussion process.
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 I\u2019ve been investing for over 40 years, which means I\u2019ve lived through the difficult times we\u2019re going through, now at the beginning of 2016, so we\u2019re going to be discussing how investors can avoid the minefields, follow somebody who knows where to walk and not tread on the minefields to see them through the next couple of difficult years. I\u2019m getting some experts to join me at those seminars around Australia.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Both of them are regular guests on our show. That is Ken Raiss and Dr. Andrew Wilson.
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 That\u2019s correct.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 One of the reasons people should be coming along to your seminar is that things have definitely changed. 2016 is going to bring with it a whole lot of new challenges we\u2019ve never even seen before.
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 Every year is a little bit different, but this mirrors the beginning of 2008 when a lot of people were concerned about what became the Global Financial Crisis when issues on the other side of the world affected us. The same is happening again. Much the same happened in 2003. I remember the early \u201990s and I remember the middle \u201980s when it happened.
\nTherefore, I am going to use the experience of having invested \u2013 and some would suggest reasonably successfully \u2013 through those cycles to share the lessons I\u2019ve learned. Boy, did I learn the hard way. I wish I knew what I know now then, but in fact, so have all the other main speakers.
\nThere is nothing to sell at these seminars. We have no properties to sell, so we can actually tell it as it is. There are some difficult times, some bad news, but there is also some good news in there as well because at these times, there are always opportunities, Kevin.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes, opportunities that others will miss. Are these emerging markets or are they existing markets that maybe have been overlooked?
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 No, I think we have to been even more careful with correct property selection because certain markets are going to suffer more during those times, and so I\u2019d be cautious of those.
\nI guess it goes back to something we discussed only a couple of minutes ago about not waiting for capital growth to occur but maybe manufacturing your own capital growth and most importantly in these more challenging times, protecting your assets by having the right finance, having the right assets, having the right structures because if history repeats itself \u2013 and it most likely will \u2013 there will be some casualties along the way, Kevin.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Since we\u2019re talking about cash flow, what are the other considerations that property investors have to bear in mind to be successful?
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 I believe there are a number of building blocks of wealth. The first is to start off with a successful mindset. It\u2019s a bit like if somebody suddenly wins the lottery and if they\u2019ve not got the right head space, they end up losing it. We hear that all the time.
\nYou have to learn the right skills and knowledge from people who have lived through these more difficult times. Then you have to set yourself a strategy. Understand what your strategy is. You also have to get risk management under control in these more challenging times \u2013 you always should, anyway \u2013 which is owning properties in the right structures, having the right finance, owning the rights to the properties.
\nWe\u2019ve already talked about cash flow. That is important, but the main aim for property investors is to build their asset base, build their equity, because this is capitalistic society we live in. We\u2019re building our capital. It\u2019s not a cash flow-istic society.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 I want to mention about Michael\u2019s seminar that is coming up in March and April. It\u2019s going to be in Sydney, Brisbane, Adelaide, Melbourne, and Perth. All the dates and all of the details at PropertyMarketUpdate.com.au.<\/a>
\nMichael, thanks for your time.
\nMichael:<\/b>\u00a0 My pleasure, Kevin.
\n <\/p>\n

Andrew Mirams<\/h3>\n

Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Joining me this time to have a look at another one of the common myths in property investment, Andrew Mirams from Intuitive Finance.
\nAndrew, welcome to the show.
\nAndrew:<\/b>\u00a0 Good day, Kevin. Thank you.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 The one I want to tackle with you is that you can actually get rich quickly by investing in property. What are your thoughts about that, mate?
\nAndrew:<\/b>\u00a0 That\u2019s a great question. If it was, why wouldn\u2019t we all be doing it, Kevin? It seems so simple, doesn\u2019t it?
\nI think one of the things that we often get presented with, as financiers, is people coming and wanting to flip properties. It\u2019s \u201cI\u2019ve heard someone do it, and you make good money and it has to be an easy way to make money in property.\u201d
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Let\u2019s firstly qualify what flipping property is.
\nAndrew:<\/b>\u00a0 Buy a property or buy a quick reno or improvement, turning it back over in the short-term. Flipping is all about not a long-term hold; it\u2019s a short-term strategy where you can turn it over quickly and make a good profit from it. I\u2019ll preface this by saying there are people who can do this, but the greater majority in our experience have been failures, and some have been quite dismal failures.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Just on that point, of the ones that you\u2019ve seen succeed, what are some of the qualities that they bring to the table that others don\u2019t?
\nAndrew:<\/b>\u00a0 There are probably five things that are really important in flipping properties, and when we go through the five things, you\u2019ll see probably where people are both successful and fail.
\nThe first one of those that we find is a lack of knowledge. By that, I mean that people haven\u2019t done their research on an area or a suburb, they haven\u2019t done their research on the type of property, and more importantly, what will sell and how long it might take to sell at the end.
\nPeople jump in thinking \u201cI saw a house next door,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019ve done this,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019ve done that,\u201d and not doing their knowledge tests and having some skills behind them is probably the first step. Again, people who do research that really well and know the areas that they should target have done fantastically, have gotten good results.
\nThe second point is a lack of skills. The skills that are probably the two most important are the financial in terms of actually doing the correct analysis, and then more so, probably, the technical and being able to get in and do a lot of the work yourself.
\nPeople who can do a lot of trades and people like that who can do work themselves, it can be profitable, but if you\u2019re outsourcing and think you can turn it over quickly, all your trades are going to want their margins on a property, and doing it then erodes your profit or potential there.
\nThe next one is a real lack of patience, Kevin. Probably the next two work together: a lack of patience and a lack of time. The first one is a lack of patience. \u201cIs it done yet? How quickly can this thing turn around so we can get it back on the market?\u201d A lack of time tends to be probably the effort that they can put into the property. Obviously, if you can do work yourself, you don\u2019t have to pay someone their wages to do it for you.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 I would imagine that\u2019s a fairly big one, that ability to roll your sleeves up and do some work yourself, because that adds straight to the bottom line.
\nAndrew:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes, absolutely. The time and the patience are all working together because at first, it sounds like a great idea. At this time of the year, people are on holidays and they think, \u201cWe\u2019ll get in and we\u2019ll do that.\u201d All of a sudden, things take longer and there is something else to do \u2013 \u201cIt\u2019s a nice day; I\u2019ll go to the beach.\u201d \u2013 and all of a sudden, it doesn\u2019t get done. That\u2019s where we get impatient or then it becomes a burden. That\u2019s the real lack of time. Every week, \u201cI have to go to this place and do this again.\u201d It can become a real burden.
\nThose who are good at it, love it. They can\u2019t wait to get there and they\u2019re really clever at both the finishes they can put on and also the work that they can do, like you said, rolling up their sleeves and doing a lot of it themselves.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Andrew, also on that point, I find, too, that the really successful ones are the ones who treat it like a business not like a hobby, not like something I\u2019m just going to do on the weekends, so I\u2019ll fit it in and I\u2019ll have to make all that other stuff fit around it. For them, it\u2019s a job really, isn\u2019t it?
\nAndrew:<\/b>\u00a0 Absolutely. I think what you said, getting rich quick, that\u2019s the thing. The ones who do it as a business not as a hobby are the ones who are successful, and the people who want to get rich quick because it\u2019s so easy to do are the ones who tend to run out of these first four things.
\nCertainly, the last point that I\u2019d like to make is the major one as far as what see. It\u2019s the lack of money that people have. They think it\u2019s a relatively cheap exercise \u2013 get in and do it because everyone is doing it. But there are three things with that lack of money. There is the buy cost. People don\u2019t often look at what it costs to buy a property, the transaction costs, the stamp duty, and things like that.
\nThe second point is while they\u2019re renovating, they\u2019re not getting a rental or anything else like that so it\u2019s your hold cost. You\u2019ve still got interest, rates, and other things. You have to meet insurance while you\u2019re holding it. Then there\u2019s the sale cost. It\u2019s getting agents in and how you advertise it, and things like that.
\nThose three things can really cruel a project. If you\u2019ve been able to do all those first four steps potentially yourself but you haven\u2019t done your research on what the monetary items are, you can end up doing it for nothing. We\u2019ve seen people do it for nothing and\/or lose money from trying to do it quickly and turning it over.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 There you go. It might be possible, but it\u2019s not easy. Our guest this time, Andrew Mirams from Intuitive Finance.
\nAndrew, thanks for your time.
\nAndrew:<\/b>\u00a0 My pleasure, Kevin. Thank you.
\n <\/p>\n

Andrew Wilson<\/h3>\n

Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Another myth that we\u2019re either going to dispel or prove today: that property statistics never lie. I\u2019m going to talk to a man who deals with statistics all the time, Dr. Andrew Wilson, Senior Economist at the Domain Group.
\nAndrew, good morning.
\nAndrew:<\/b>\u00a0 Good morning, Kevin.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Do they ever lie?
\nAndrew:<\/b>\u00a0 It depends on the models, of course. It\u2019s a problematic exercise \u2013 modeling the housing market \u2013 for various reasons. At the granular level, every buyer and seller are different, every property is different in time and space, and it\u2019s a question of putting enough observations together to get a feel for what the underlying activity levels are in a particular market.
\nThat can mean, firstly, that you need a larger number of actual sales to get an accurate insight into the market and you also need a timeframe, as well, within a period that\u2019s not looking too far back.
\nThere are a number of factors \u2013 the mix of property sales, the time period involved, and the actual volume of sales that are available. We don\u2019t want to be modeling\u2026 It\u2019s easy enough to know what happened two or three years ago because we have a robust set of statistics. We want to know what\u2019s happening as close to now as possible. That\u2019s where we do get some flexibility in outcome.
\nI think it\u2019s important for statistics in terms of house price modeling to use correlating measures of housing market activity. So not just house prices \u2013 the various methodologies \u2013 but also other factors such as auction clearance rates, auction volumes, and of course, the housing lending data that comes out from the ABS.
\nI think that helps us put a richer picture together to give us an understanding of what is actually happening now in the housing market. But the very nature of the fact that we only get 6% of all properties sold in a given year in most capital cities means that it\u2019s always only ever going to be a snapshot.
\nIt does remain a difficult issue, but nonetheless, one that if you use a variety of approaches, can give you some clear insight into what\u2019s happening in the marketplace, which, of course, is very important if you\u2019re thinking of buying and selling.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 That\u2019s an interesting statistic you just hit us with there \u2013 that 6% of properties turn over. When you look at it in that sense, it really is a small snapshot, isn\u2019t it?
\nAndrew:<\/b>\u00a0 Absolutely. Then you think about all of the variety within that 6% and all the different agendas for buyers and sellers. Some sellers are desperate to sell; others might just be feeling the market out.
\nSome buyers are very keen on a particular property because it might be close to a relative or its size might suit them, and they\u2019re prepared to pay a lot more than perhaps a buyer who doesn\u2019t have that same motivation.
\nSome buyers have a higher financial capacity and are prepared to pay more, and other sellers might have more motivation or less motivation depending on their financial circumstances.
\nYou need to put all these different variables together to try to understand what the underlying energy or the underlying fact or the underlying nature of a particular housing market is. That\u2019s balanced against not having to look too far back because you want to know your information is more appropriate the closer it is to now rather than looking back a year when you have a lot of sales volume.
\nThat\u2019s the other point, too. Sales data does trickle through. Official sales data can take up to nine months to come through to those who model the data. Again, there is the lag in actually collecting the data.
\nThere are a number of issues there. As I said, the key is to use different correlating methods of measurement, so that can put it all together and give you a clearer sense of what\u2019s happening in housing markets.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Well said, as always. Dr. Andrew Wilson, Senior Economist at the Domain Group.
\nAndrew, thank you so much for your time. Great talking to you.
\nAndrew:<\/b>\u00a0 Thank you so much, Kevin.
\n <\/p>\n

Jan Somers<\/h3>\n

Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 I want to talk about another myth, and that is that it doesn\u2019t matter when you buy a property, just to hold it and time takes care of any mistakes you might make. To have a look at this one, I\u2019m going to talk to Jan Somers from Somersoft.com.au. That\u2019s software that will help you improve your property investment outcomes.
\nJan, thank you for your time.
\nJan:<\/b>\u00a0 My pleasure, Kevin.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 How do you feel about that statement, \u201cIt doesn\u2019t matter when you buy; just hold onto it.\u201d
\nJan:<\/b>\u00a0 My philosophy is time, not timing. That\u2019s probably the best way of describing it.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Tell me a little bit more about what you mean by that.
\nJan:<\/b>\u00a0 You have to have a length of time for property, I believe, to make it work, an absolute minimum of 7 years and preferably 10 or 20. It\u2019s the length of time that you hold a property that is most important, rather than the exact timing of when you buy, because trying to pick the time is like trying to pick when the Spanish bus is going to come past. You don\u2019t know; it\u2019s not the same as a Swiss train. Timing is very iffy, very buzzy, and there\u2019s usually not a good outcome if you\u2019re relying on making a lot of money in a quick time. It just doesn\u2019t work.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Generally, people who try to pick the cycles in the market will chase things like hot spots and so on, which are very risky.
\nJan:\u00a0 <\/b>It\u2019s a completely different end of the market to what I call investing. It really is the speculating end of the market if you\u2019re relying on timing to make money. It becomes almost in the category of shares, where you\u2019re taking a punt and a bet on the market, whereas if you\u2019re buying for the long-term, you\u2019re not taking a bet on the market; you\u2019re taking a bet on the time.
\nI was reading an article the other day on Marcus Licinius Crassus, who in 55 B.C., made a lot of money by buying property and holding onto it.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 In fact, a lot of the very astute investors I\u2019ve met over the years\u2026 I hate to categorize people, but I think those in the Italian community are great at this. They\u2019ll have property, probably even the first property they ever owned.
\nJan:<\/b>\u00a0 It\u2019s almost a European tradition that goes back hundreds of years to buy and hold property.
\nKevin:\u00a0 <\/b>That buy and hold strategy, as you\u2019ve just identified, is nothing new. I think those who get into flipping and things like that, there are lots of pitfalls. You can over-capitalize, you can get your timing wrong, and end up losing lots of money.
\nJan:<\/b>\u00a0 It does and those people who rely on the timing and trying to pick the market are generally trying to make a short, quick dollar. My experience is, particularly for me, it doesn\u2019t work. When I\u2019ve looked at others, it doesn\u2019t work, either. It\u2019s very hit and miss.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Your strategy very much is to buy and hold, Jan?
\nJan:<\/b>\u00a0 Has always been buy and hold, except for the one time we did try to make, I can\u2019t say a quick dollar. It was back in the late \u201980s when we did a renovation and expected to spend $10,000 and make $20,000 or $30,000. Much to our disgust, it was worth less when we\u2019d finished than when we\u2019d started, but holding it for another few years soon ironed out those little bumps in the market, and we were fortunate that the time corrected any mistakes that we\u2019d made.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes, sometimes the quick buck looks really good and looks very profitable at the outset, but then by the time that you look at all of your on-costs and the time taken, there is not a lot of money left in some of these renovations.
\nJan:<\/b>\u00a0 Looks good, sounds good, and if it sounds too good to be true, it is too good to be true.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 It normally is. Very good advice. Jan, great talking to you. Thank you once again. A reminder, once again, about that great software company, Somersoft.com.au. It\u2019ll certainly help you turn your portfolio into a more profitable one.
\nJan Somers, thank you so much for your time.
\nJan:<\/b>\u00a0 Thanks, Kevin. My pleasure.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

  Property success stories are everywhere but we have to warn that there are many stories we don\u2019t hear about because there are many people who fail.\u00a0 So what makes a successful property investor? \u00a0That\u2019s what we discuss with Andrew Mirams who has seen it…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":176692471,"featured_media":7178,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[24],"tags":[101],"class_list":["post-7172","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-shows","tag-podcast"],"yoast_head":"\nMore myths go under the microscope + Investors pay for unused infrastructure - Realty Talk<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/channels.realty.com.au\/realtytalk\/more-myths-go-under-the-microscope-investors-pay-for-unused-infrastructure\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"More myths go under the microscope + Investors pay for unused infrastructure - Realty Talk\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"  Property success stories are everywhere but we have to warn that there are many stories we don\u2019t hear about because there are many people who fail.\u00a0 So what makes a successful property investor? 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