{"id":10915,"date":"2017-03-24T03:00:40","date_gmt":"2017-03-23T16:00:40","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/realestatetalk.com.au\/?p=10915"},"modified":"2017-03-24T03:00:40","modified_gmt":"2017-03-23T16:00:40","slug":"when-and-how-to-dump-a-dud-property-the-apra-type-boom-protection-in-a-relationship-bust-up","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/channels.realty.com.au\/realtytalk\/when-and-how-to-dump-a-dud-property-the-apra-type-boom-protection-in-a-relationship-bust-up\/","title":{"rendered":"When and how to dump a dud property + The APRA type boom + Protection in a relationship bust up"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><b><i><span style=\"text-decoration: underline\">Highlights from this week: <\/span><\/i><\/b><br \/>\n&nbsp;<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>How to protect your portfolio in a relationship break up<\/li>\n<li>The pros and cons of the Victorian Government\u2019s affordability scheme<\/li>\n<li>How some auction buyers are paying more than they need to without even knowing it is happening<\/li>\n<li>Perfecting the \u2018dud property\u2019 detector<\/li>\n<li>What could be halting your portfolio growth and why it\u2019s not your fault<\/li>\n<li>Perfecting your auction bidding strategy<\/li>\n<li>Traps for young players starting out<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>&nbsp;<br \/>\n<strong>Transcripts:<\/strong><\/p>\n<h2>Traps for young players starting out &#8211; Shannon Davis<\/h2>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Shannon Davis from Metropole Property Strategists joins me. We talk about the restrictions that the banks are currently putting on lenders is probably one of the biggest concerns for property investors right now.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Shannon, as I read it, the banks are really toughening up, looking at where they\u2019re lending, how big their books are going be. In fact, in some cases, some of the banks are saying they just simply won\u2019t lend any more to property investors.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Shannon:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes. I was recently talking to an investor client of ours, and they got asked for a letter from his in-laws that they could live rent-free in their house in order for the loan to go through. That was the extent of how much. And this person was well capitalized and on dual income, so they\u2019re really tightening it up. In some areas, it\u2019s been referred to as an APRA-type boom in that the tightening up actually has the wrong effect on prices and making the demand even more.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes. There\u2019re going to be a lot of very nervous developers, I would think, hearing the stories that I\u2019m hearing out of places like Cairns where the banks are having their own valuations prior to settlement and they\u2019re coming in so much under the purchase price.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Shannon: \u00a0\u00a0<\/b>It definitely makes it hard to complete if you have to afford an extra $20,000, $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 to make the settlement occur. There will be people walking away from deposits, I would think.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Shannon, I want to talk to you now about the common mistakes you see investors make in this market, and it probably changes because of some of the things we\u2019re talking about \u2013 the way the banks are reacting, what APRA is doing and so on. But what are some of the common mistakes you see investors make?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Shannon:<\/b>\u00a0 I think people like to beat their chest in trying to have a quantity approach and try and buy ten properties, but what you\u2019ll see is maybe those ten properties will be worth $3.7 million and the investor only has like $400,000 of equity in that portfolio.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Very high risk, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Shannon:<\/b> \u00a0Yes, high risk. It\u2019s not about how many properties you own; it\u2019s that difference between the net debt and the market value, which gives you your equity, is what you\u2019re worth.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Because without that equity you can\u2019t gear either, can you?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Shannon:<\/b>\u00a0 You can\u2019t buy again. You can\u2019t extend your portfolio. It\u2019s the difference, really, between a fast-moving portfolio and a slow-moving one. There are people who have used up their borrowing capacity with non-investment-grade properties and are just stuck in the mud, for want of a better term.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 You must see a number of those? To help them out of it, they have to really sell down, get out of those bad properties?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Shannon:<\/b>\u00a0 And sometimes can\u2019t afford to sell. There\u2019s no market there or they owe more than what it\u2019s worth now.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 They need to make a loss, don\u2019t they?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Shannon:<\/b>\u00a0 Definitely, and they can\u2019t afford to crystalize that loss.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Wow.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Shannon: <\/b>\u00a0That\u2019s a real sad part. They would have been better off doing nothing than investing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">That\u2019s where we get it wrong. We think that property is always going to go up, that each property is very much the same\u2026<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Well, they do if you buy well.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Shannon:<\/b>\u00a0 They do if you buy well, but there are going to be times in the market where we\u2019re not booming and there are going to be times where we go sideways, and there can even be times where we\u2019re going to contract. When you\u2019ve been an experienced investor, you\u2019ve seen all those times through.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Again, it\u2019s long term, but let\u2019s do our research. Let\u2019s not take advice from people who are compromised, and by that I mean like selling agents. You shouldn\u2019t be getting your investing advice by your selling agent because they have a different agenda to you.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">You shouldn\u2019t be getting advice from someone who\u2019s going to bring out a list and say, \u201cAny one of these properties will be your answer,\u201d because they\u2019re compromised to that list of properties and they\u2019re probably getting a commission from that builder and developer.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">These are the type of traps for young players that I\u2019m talking about, where people are taking the advice from compromised people or the wrong types of people.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Didn\u2019t really finish you talking about gearing, and we might do that next time we catch up because I think that\u2019s a fascinating subject on its own \u2013 how you gear \u2013 because many people don\u2019t understand the benefits of it. They have all this equity in a property but they don\u2019t understand about gearing. We\u2019ll talk about that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Also lines of credit \u2013 and we have got about 60 seconds left. A line of credit and the importance of having the buffer for things that you\u2019ve been talking about then.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Shannon:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes. And again, it comes back to the equity in your portfolio and a sophisticated broker probably giving you that access to that line of credit. That can help you with your contingencies, whether it\u2019s emergency repairs or a slight loss of employment. Once it\u2019s been extended to you, it\u2019s very much up to your discretion of how it\u2019s spent, and if it\u2019s used wisely, it\u2019s like this big credit card that\u2019s not really costing you anything to have but can buy you time to get out of a bad scenario, such as loss of employment, emergency repairs, a tenant absconding from your property.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Thirty seconds. Sum it up for me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Shannon:<\/b>\u00a0 Begin. That would be my first advice. Begin. You have got to grow your asset base wide if you want to have that delayed gratification in the end. Time your life, don\u2019t time your market. Do things to your personal circumstances, not to what the headlines are saying around you. And finally, have a plan. If you want to execute that plan, get some expert advice.<\/p>\n<h2><\/h2>\n<h2>Is this the answer to housing affordability? &#8211; Nerida Conisbee<\/h2>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Of course, one of the most popular topics when it comes to property is all about affordability. Interesting to see that in Victoria, the state government there have instigated a policy they\u2019re calling Homes for Victorians, the government\u2019s Housing Affordability package. To have a look at this and just unwrap it a little bit \u2013 pardon the pun there \u2013 Nerida Conisbee, who is the Chief Economist with the REA Group, joins me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Nerida, how are you?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Nerida:<\/b>\u00a0 I\u2019m well. Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 It\u2019s a pleasure, as always. Tell me a little bit about this initiative. What are they doing?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Nerida:<\/b>\u00a0 They\u2019re looking across a range of measures, so there are cuts to stamp duty for first-home buyers, there are taxes on vacant properties, and there\u2019s also a kind of rent-to-buy scheme or a scheme where the government owns a proportion of the property that will allow people on lower incomes to get into the market.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 What\u2019s the early feedback on this, Nerida? Do you think it\u2019s going to make much of a difference?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Nerida:<\/b>\u00a0 I think it\u2019s great news. I think the Victorian government is certainly on the front foot in addressing affordability. When we look at affordability nationally, it\u2019s not really a huge problem in Melbourne. I know people in Melbourne think it\u2019s very expensive, but when we compare to what\u2019s happening in Sydney, it\u2019s vastly cheaper to buy in the Melbourne market and it\u2019s actually not unaffordable for first-home buyers. The situation in Sydney is far more dire, and the fact that the New South Wales government haven\u2019t released such a package is probably more problematic for them.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes. Already they\u2019re starting to talk about it, though. There are a lot of ripples on the water about the fact that the state government in New South Wales may have to do something like this.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Nerida:<\/b>\u00a0 They really should. When we look at Victoria, Victoria has been building a lot of housing for quite some time \u2013<b> <\/b>for decades \u2013 and it\u2019s got to a situation where both the Victorian economy is growing very strongly and the New South Wales economy is growing very strongly, and New South Wales and particularly Sydney has really been caught out with the fact that there\u2019s just not enough housing and it\u2019s becoming unaffordable not just to buyers but also for renters.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b> Danni Addison, Victorian CEO for the Urban Development Institute, is very much behind this, saying things like, while they\u2019re cautiously optimistic, they\u2019re going to see how the market responds. But they\u2019ve certainly said that the government pulling the lever in this way is going to change the momentum of the housing market. Would you agree with that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Nerida:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes, I think so. There\u2019s a little bit of a view that some of the measures may lead to accelerated price growth, and I think that would be the case, but people in that sub-$600,000 price category where we do have a lot of first-home buyers and they are getting these cuts in stamp duty, it may lead to a bit more price growth than we really want to see.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">But I think overall, the fact that the Victorian government has recognized the problem and has decided to do something and is actually looking at a range of measures is really positive, too, that they\u2019re not just relying on one measure to increase affordability.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 That\u2019s probably where a lot of governments have gone wrong in the past, too. Interesting to note that re-investors are not going to be receiving any stamp duty concessions. Is that going to put a bit of a dampener on that reinvestment or investor market?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Nerida:<\/b>\u00a0 I don\u2019t think so. I think there\u2019s still enough housing available for everyone in Victoria. I think, though, this is really designed to help first-home buyers into the market and it\u2019ll definitely help them. If you\u2019re a first-home buyer and you can save $15,000, it makes a massive difference to your ability to buy. Trying to save $15,000 can take quite some time, and the government giving you that money and really helping with stamp duty is positive.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Very much so.\u00a0 Nerida Conisbee from REA. Thank you so much for your time, Nerida.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Nerida:<\/b>\u00a0 Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h2>Perfecting the &#8216;dud property&#8217; detector &#8211; <a href=\"http:\/\/realestatetalk.com.au\/featured-channel\/michael-yardney\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Michael Yardney<\/a><\/h2>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>If you\u2019re a regular listener to the show, you\u2019ll know that we talk all the time about having a strategy. But when can the strategy go wrong? Sometimes it does, sometimes you end up with a property in your portfolio that you don\u2019t want to hold onto any longer. So how do you find out when you\u2019ve got a dud, and then what do you do about it? When to sell, and when to hold a property? That\u2019s the question I\u2019m going to pose this week of Michael Yardney from Metropole Property Strategists.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Hi, Michael.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Michael:\u00a0 <\/b>Good morning, Kevin.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>No doubt you\u2019ve come across this in your own portfolio.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Michael:\u00a0 <\/b>I\u2019ve come across it in my own portfolio, and definitely with lots of our clients, Kevin. It is a difficult question because there is so much time, effort, and money involved in buying, and emotion as well, that sometimes it\u2019s hard to look at it subjectively. It\u2019s something one has to do, though.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>Yes, indeed. What are some of the questions that you ask yourself or you get your clients to ask themselves to determine whether or not it\u2019s a dud and what they should do about it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Michael:\u00a0 <\/b>A good question you should ask yourself is: is my property performing like I expected it to? Because that goes back to what you said in the beginning; you actually have to have a strategy, you have to have some expectations.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">The next question I\u2019d ask is: is the property outperforming the market? Maybe it\u2019s just a lull in the market. In certain markets \u2013 in Western Australia, in Perth, for example \u2013 you probably wouldn\u2019t have performed well because the general market is not doing well. But it doesn\u2019t necessarily mean you have to sell up. So, how is it performing compared to the rest of the market?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">The third question I\u2019d ask myself is: if this property was on the market today, would I buy it again? I like asking: knowing what I know now, would I buy that same property?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">I\u2019d also then look at: is there anything I can do to improve my property\u2019s return, maybe to make it more attractive?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">And the last question I\u2019d ask is: is this property likely to outperform in the long term? In other words, is there an opportunity cost in holding this property compared to something else? These questions are going to make sure that you own the right property, Kevin.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>Looking at those last couple of questions, I want to look in detail at probably three, four, and five, but four and five, even if you do do something to improve it, number five \u2013 which is \u201cIs it going to outperform the market?\u201d \u2013 that\u2019s probably the ultimate question, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Michael:\u00a0 <\/b>It is. In general, the performance of your property is going to be 80% related to its location and maybe 20% or so to the property itself. If you bought in the wrong location, in one of those isn\u2019t going to do well in the long term \u2013 in other words, not in a capital city or not in the right locations in a capital city \u2013 it\u2019s just going to be too hard in the long term, no matter how much you tart it up, pretty it up, what value you add, because that\u2019ll give you a one-off improvement, but \u201cIs it going to do well in the long term?\u201d is a question I ask myself.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>I said at the outset that we all make mistakes. In your experience, Michael, what are the things that make a property underperform?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Michael:\u00a0 <\/b>There are a couple of things. First of all, there\u2019s timing \u2013 buying at the wrong time in the cycle or just holding it at the wrong time in the cycle. We know that every ten years or so \u2013 not that the cycle is exactly ten years \u2013 there are going to be three or four years when the market is flat, there will be a year or two when all properties drop a little bit in value, and then there will be a period of time when things go really well. So, is it the time in the cycle? If that\u2019s the case, don\u2019t worry, because if you have an investment-grade property, it\u2019ll do okay.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Maybe it has underperformed because you paid too much, and that may mean you\u2019re likely to have a few years of no capital growth. But again, if it\u2019s the right location and the right property, it\u2019s a one-off cost but you have yourself a good property.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">As I said right at the beginning, the location is the most important. Some suburbs will underperform and others will do better \u2013 and they\u2019re the ones you should be owning.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">And then is it the property itself? Have you just chosen the wrong sort of property? Maybe one that doesn\u2019t fit the location or one that just doesn\u2019t have the attributes that make it investment-grade, Kevin.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>We said in the outset about having a plan, a strategy. That\u2019s so important. But another big mistake is if you have a plan and you find there\u2019s something not quite right, not taking any action, not doing anything about it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Michael:\u00a0 <\/b>What I commonly hear people say is \u201cIt\u2019s not costing me anything; the cash flow is covering the mortgage.\u201d And while it may not be costing you in cash flow, if you didn\u2019t own a good property in the last couple of years, you\u2019ve missed out on some of the best markets we\u2019ve ever experienced in Melbourne or Sydney, so there\u2019s a huge opportunity cost.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">I explain it this way to clients. I say, \u201cDo you own a business?\u201d \u2013 because remember, property investment is like a business \u2013 and many of them do. I say, \u201cWell, imagine if you did, and imagine if you had an employee and they came late to work, they played on Twitter and Facebook all day, and they went to lunch and came back and didn\u2019t see the customers or the clients, what would you do?\u201d They\u2019d say, \u201cWe\u2019d sack them.\u201d And I\u2019d say, \u201cYou probably have to do a performance review first because that\u2019s what industrial relations requires.\u201d<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">And this is what we\u2019re doing with your portfolio, your property business. We\u2019re doing a performance review. And if you can\u2019t improve its performance, then what I would do is I would sack them. And you know, sometimes you have to pay a redundancy package.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">And then the clients get it, Kevin. Because I say, \u201cYou pay a redundancy package, get rid of your bad employee, so that in the future you have a better employee who\u2019s going to work even harder for you and make more money.\u201d Then the penny drops.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>That\u2019s a great point, and a great way to describe it too.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">So we\u2019ve made the decision, we\u2019re going to sell this lemon, this dud property. But what if it\u2019s the wrong time to sell?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Michael:\u00a0 <\/b>Again, it\u2019s all related to opportunity costs. That\u2019s why I was saying that there\u2019s a redundancy package in some ways. Yes, there will be some losses that you crystalize, some selling costs or some opportunity costs, but if you have a dud property and it\u2019s not a good time today, when the market improves, in general what will happen is the investment-grade properties, the better properties will outperform your dud property, and the gap will only widen. So it never seems to get much better.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">It\u2019s a difficult decision to make. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and move on, Kevin.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>Yes. Great comment, Michael. Thank you so much for your time. Michael Yardney from Metropole Property Strategists.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Thanks for your time, Michael.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Michael:\u00a0 <\/b>My pleasure, Kevin.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<br \/>\n<span style=\"font-size: 19.5px;font-weight: bold\">Why you could be paying too much at auction &#8211; Patrick Bright<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 I went to an auction yesterday. At one stage, I\u2019m nearly sure that one of the bidders actually bid against themselves. They had placed a bid and they placed another one. According to my next guest, Patrick Bright, that\u2019s a fairly common occurrence.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Good day, Patrick. How are you doing?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 Morning, Kevin.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 So you\u2019ve seen this happen quite often where the highest bidder will actually bid against themselves?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 It\u2019s quite common, yes. It is. I\u2019ve been bidding at auctions on behalf of clients for nearly two decades, and it\u2019s a very common occurrence. I\u2019m formerly an auctioneer myself, and I watched people do it when I was calling them, and I speak to many auctioneers and they say probably every second or third auction, they\u2019re getting one or two people doing it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes. I\u2019ve been to many, many auctions. As an auctioneer, I\u2019ve conducted a lot as well. It\u2019s a very emotional state, isn\u2019t it, for the bidder? And it\u2019s quite easy to understand why when the auctioneer does call and give that high inference of sale, they\u2019ll stick their hand up to make sure that are, in fact, the highest bidder.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes, they do. They lose track. They lose track of it. You are in an emotional state, and if people are very nervous and they don\u2019t expect just how much pressure is on them until they\u2019re actually bidding with their own money, in the moment, and they want this property. It\u2019s different if you go and watch a few auctions, which I always recommend clients do and people do if they\u2019re going to bid at one, but it\u2019s just not the same when your own money is on the line.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Now, there\u2019ll be a number of people listening now saying, \u201cWell, the auctioneer should then turn around or someone should turn around and say, \u2018No, I won\u2019t take that bid because you\u2019ve already done it.\u2019\u201d But they\u2019re under no obligation to do that, Patrick, are they?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 No. An auctioneer is under no obligation to tell you you\u2019re bidding against yourself. And at the end of the day, they want the thing to flow, and if they pause and lose momentum by even thinking of doing that, it\u2019s going to slow things up, and that\u2019s not what they want to do. They want it to push on, and their interest, they\u2019re representing the seller, so if you want to bid against yourself, who are they to stop you?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 You said you\u2019re an auctioneer, so you\u2019ve obviously had this experience as the auctioneer where someone\u2019s done this. What did you do?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 We kept going. That\u2019s what you\u2019re trained to do. As an auctioneer, you\u2019re under no obligation to tell anyone, and you\u2019re being paid by the seller. The agent and the auctioneer are being paid by the seller, not the buyer. So they\u2019re not there to represent the buyer. If the buyer isn\u2019t confident in knowing what they\u2019re doing, they should get their own professional representation to avoid that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 At any stage, if someone did that\u2026 Let\u2019s play a bit of a hypothetical here now. You\u2019re the auctioneer and I\u2019ve just placed a bid against myself and then I realize that I\u2019ve done it or someone whispered in my ear and said, \u201cHey, listen you. You\u2019ve just bid against yourself,\u201d have I got the ability to withdraw that bid?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 You do. A buyer can withdraw his bid. They can withdraw a bid at any time prior to the fall of the hammer.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">I have seen that happen on the odd occasion, where someone\u2019s bid an incremental amount or realized they may have gone over their budget, and they\u2019ve had a conversation with their partner, their spouse, and realized that they can\u2019t back up that bid. Yes, I have seen people pull the agent to one side and say, \u201cHey, I\u2019ve bid over my limit. I\u2019ve been caught up in the emotion. I need to pull out of that.\u201d And they will withdraw the bid.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">I\u2019ve also seen the agents have that conversation and then they have someone else to take over and keep going with it. It\u2019s never ended up in a disaster \u2013 that I\u2019ve seen \u2013 but it certainly can rock the momentum of an auction.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 As a bidder, you bid on behalf of your clients. You\u2019re in a situation where you\u2019re in the auction. You probably are the highest bidder. You\u2019re getting pressure from the agent, who\u2019s probably whispering in your ear, and then the auctioneer is calling for you to either increase your bid or try and negotiate you up. How do you resist that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 Well, I simply say if we\u2019re the highest bidder you\u2019ve got no better offer, why would I bid against myself? And I just sit tight. You know, there\u2019s no need to bid against yourself. They have it on the market, or even if it\u2019s not on the market, they\u2019ll be pressuring you when it\u2019s not on the market more so than if it is, because once it\u2019s on the market and hit the reserve, it\u2019s a matter of it\u2019ll be sold.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">But prior to hitting the reserve, if you are the highest bidder and you\u2019re short of the reserve, or what the vendor hopes to get, then they will put pressure on you, and you just have to sit tight.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Do you always use the same bidding strategy, or do you vary a bit \u2013 sometimes you might decide that you\u2019re going to go straight to the price with the king hit bid? Do you have a strategy like that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 I do have various strategies. It depends on the mood and the amount of people bidding. One I did a couple of weeks ago, the property was really heavily under-quoted and there were literally 20-something people holding bidding cards. I knew where value would stack. We\u2019d made a pre-auction offer that was rejected, and it was a sensible offer. I knew the reserve was going to be around there, and I knew that it\u2019d probably sell for more than that anyway.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">We opened with that bid straight off the bat. I looked around, and it basically knocked out three-quarters of the room that were there, of the crowd. They were just stood out. We then only had to play the auction out with about three other bidders.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">That rocks people and that sends a message. Now, you have to be careful doing that, and you really need to know your values and numbers, because I\u2019ve seen people do that and they make only one bid and no one else bids, and they\u2019ve bought it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 You\u2019re on pretty safe ground in a situation like the scenario you just gave us because you\u2019d made that offer prior to auction. You were obviously prepared to pay for it and pay that figure for it. So you were one pretty safe ground, I would imagine.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 Reasonably yes, but we know their numbers. We\u2019ve done our research, and we\u2019re confident of where value sits. If you\u2019re going to make a strong opening bid, you really need to know your numbers, because I\u2019ve seen people do this a number of times. They\u2019ve been given a bit of advice \u2013 open strong, knock the competition out. They certainly did, and they paid a figure that no one else even made a bid against, and it was on the market with one bid. So that tells you that they\u2019ve gone way too aggressive.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Do you ever get the chance nowadays to buy prior to auction, or do you find that most sellers are happy to go to auction, obviously to get that premium bid?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes. It moves around. It\u2019s quite interesting. Quite a lot is actually selling before auction. You have to understand the clearance rates that are calculated \u2013 we\u2019re sitting around 70% to 80% clearance rate is where the auction stats sit, just using Sydney as an example \u2013 that includes all sales prior to auction, sales on the day of the auction, and sales that happen within seven days of the auction.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">The real clearance rates, on the day, at the auction, is probably closer to 50% if you calculate and take into account all the pre-auction sales so it\u2019s quite a different figure. I would say, at the moment, at least a third, maybe even more, are going before auction.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Is that sign that the sellers or the agent lose their nerve?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 No, it\u2019s not. There are two reasons one sells before auction from my experience, and as you know, I was previously a sales agent as well. The reason people generally would take a deal before auction is because someone was offering a figure that we just didn\u2019t think anybody else was going to get near at the auction, so we needed to take this money and run, because auctions are only ever going to get the second-highest price.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">If you have somebody who\u2019s offering $1 million before auction but you think that most of the market is sitting around the $900,000 or $950,000 mark, then you\u2019re wise to take that million because you\u2019re not going to see it on auction day. You might see it around $900,000 or $950,000 where the competition is. So that\u2019s one reason.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">The other reason is if the seller has already bought and rather than take the bird in the hand, it\u2019s at a figure they\u2019re comfortable with, it\u2019s a figure that allows them to move on with their life and make their commitments of the next purchase they\u2019ve made or you give them the settlement date they want.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">One of the things I\u2019m always looking for as the agent is has the seller bought? What\u2019s their settlement date? Is that important to them? Can we give that to them? And then let\u2019s talk about price, because price is important but it\u2019s not as important in those circumstances as terms and timing.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Sometimes the auction does actually achieve that really big premium price, Patrick, doesn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 Very. Here\u2019s the thing. An auction is lotto outcome for the buyer and the seller. It really is, and you are playing a bit of a lotto game there. In my experience \u2013 and there are at least 40 auction weeks a year, and I\u2019m doing anything from one to five a week, and I\u2019ve been doing it for 18 years \u2013 to give an idea, my estimation is around about a third of the properties that sell at auction do get a very strong price that they probably would not have got had they just been stuck on the market with a price.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">About a third of time, I think, they\u2019re still around about fair money \u2013 pretty much within a few percent of what they would have got with a price guide \u2013 and about a third of time, we\u2019re getting a below fair-market bargain.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Understand this: not everybody goes to an auction. Probably half of my clients who hire me, who have been looking on their own and they\u2019re fed up with it, say to me, \u201cI\u2019m not interested in going to an auction, Patrick. We\u2019ve been to three or four. We\u2019re sick of wasting money on building reports. We\u2019re sick of the disappointment. We\u2019re sick of the under-quoting.\u201d So they lose a percentage of the buyers.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">But they don\u2019t need everybody to get a sale. However, you have to understand that it\u2019s not going to capture everybody in the market.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Patrick, we\u2019ve going to have to go, mate, but I want to thank you once again for being with us. Patrick\u2019s book, of course \u2013 look out for it \u2013 is <i>The Insider\u2019s Guide to Saving Thousands at Auction<\/i>. A great read.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Patrick, thanks again for your time, mate.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Patrick:<\/b>\u00a0 Thanks, Kevin, as always.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">\u00a0<span style=\"font-size: 19.5px;font-weight: bold\">Asset protection in a bust up &#8211; Zaki Ameer<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>I don\u2019t know how many times I\u2019ve heard people talk about what happens when they have a divorce, especially those people who maybe get to later in life and they build a lot of equity in their maybe principal place of residence. They might even have a property portfolio.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re aware of it or not, but last year alone, there were 50,000 divorces granted in Australia. That\u2019s roughly about 1000 every week, sadly making it one of the most common issues for Australian families that they must deal with.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Zaki Ameer, who is a real estate expert and founder of Dream Design Property, joins me on the line.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Zaki, this is something I guess people can\u2019t really be prepared for, but maybe they should be. What\u2019s your view on that?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Zaki:\u00a0 <\/b>Kevin, this is also from my own personal experience. Obviously, nobody gets married for a divorce. That\u2019s the first reason. And then the other part is about de facto relationships, which are becoming more and more common, that maybe not as many people are getting married.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">So it\u2019s also important to know that family law rules apply if you\u2019re in a de facto relationship. What that means is if two people are in a relationship, living together in the same household for more than two years, or immediately if your relationship is registered with Births, Deaths and Marriages, it would be very similar to getting married. That\u2019s also an important part to know. It\u2019s not only applicable to marriages.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>Yes. Thank you for sharing that with us. I wasn\u2019t going to necessarily raise that you\u2019re speaking from personal experience, but I guess you carry into this topic a lot of that experience yourself that you can actually share some of the wisdom with us. What are some of the things that we should be aware of if we\u2019re going into a breakup like this?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Zaki:\u00a0 <\/b>I think we need to just be prepared. As much as it\u2019s tough to be aware that your relationship may break down or may not break down, we don\u2019t want to be na\u00efve. Some do suggest doing a prenuptial agreement, which is one way to avoid some of it, so that you are very clear. It\u2019s like going into a business relationship or a partnership, so you\u2019re aware of where you stand if the relationship does break down.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">But I have to say that it\u2019s not a very easy thing, it\u2019s not an easy topic to discuss, because you\u2019re emotionally in love and a prenuptial agreement is very contractual. Even if you don\u2019t do that, I guess it\u2019s just being self-aware that that may happen. And if it does happen, one of the things you want to make sure is that you want to be as professional as you can at a very emotional time.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>Because at a time like this, I imagine it\u2019s a matter of wanting to get even too, and probably the only thing you can do \u2013 two things, I guess. Maybe the kids and any assets that you might have.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Zaki:\u00a0 <\/b>Correct. You also want to be aware that even if it\u2019s your husband or your wife who is staying at home and looking after the kids, or even if you don\u2019t have kids, your husband or wife was supporting you in other ways, whether it\u2019s taking care of the household, making sure the house is clean, making sure you have food on the table.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Many think \u201cYes, well, I bought these properties and I\u2019m the one who is working in a job and it was my money, so I\u2019m entitled to everything.\u201d That\u2019s actually not true, and I agree to that because obviously, your partner would have supported you in some sort of way to be able to accumulate these assets, so he or she would be getting a fair share of that.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Being aware of that and being okay with it rather than getting emotional and arguing about it is one way to look at it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>Yes. Is it possible during a time like this to really step back and try and differentiate between emotions and economics, Zaki?<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Zaki:\u00a0 <\/b>I remember a recent interview when we\u2019re making investment decisions. If you could do the same things with this, I think it would be I guess less painful. The same way you\u2019re going to be buying an investment property, I always say do your best to look at it logically as opposed to emotionally. You\u2019ll be much more successful in building a property portfolio.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">So in the same manner, I think this is where you probably seek help, and the help in my opinion needs to come from a professional and someone you trust. It may be a family member. Unfortunately, that might not always be the best case because your family might be on your side and might be very emotional about it.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Seeking help from a lawyer. And I also have to warn with that when you do get legal advice you do want to go for a recommended solicitor from someone you trust who has an area of expertise in family law, because in divorce or even de facto breakups, nobody wins. It\u2019s a lose-lose situation anyway. You just have to make sure that the person giving this advice has your best interest, and you want to avoid having to go to court.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">My take on that is be professional about it, take your lawyer\u2019s advice, and sometimes it\u2019s okay to give up a bit more just to avoid the heartache of spending the next few years in the family courthouse looking at your partner.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>Yes. Easy to say, but you do actually have to look at it very professionally and in a businesslike manner, because I think if you don\u2019t make sure that the deal is more favorable to the other person, then there\u2019s a possibility \u2013 and I\u2019ve actually heard this happen \u2013 where they can come back and dispute any settlement, even years down the track.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Zaki:\u00a0 <\/b>I agree. Given I unfortunately had to go through this, it\u2019s probably one of the most personal investigating matter in the sense that anything can be questioned. I\u2019m not saying that people have intentions of wrongdoing, and that\u2019s why you want to settle this matter very quickly, because some people have this assumption that just because I have a single bank account and it\u2019s in my name, that money or those finances belong to me.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">That may not be the case under family law, because like I mentioned before, if your partner assisted in some way of gaining those finances, even if it\u2019s a bank account that\u2019s in your name, he or she may be entitled to some of that money. So you don\u2019t want to really be going through that exercise. You want to do your best to speak to someone professional who\u2019s on your side, and settle that matter as fast as you can.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Kevin:\u00a0 <\/b>Yes. I guess to sum up, no one really ever goes into a relationship expecting that it\u2019s going to turn sour, but you need to be prepared for the worst case scenario.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\">Zaki, that\u2019s probably sufficient. I appreciate you giving us your time today and sharing your personal experience with us, and I\u2019m sure that a lot of people will have gained some good knowledge out of this. Thank you very much for your time, Zaki.<\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><b>Zaki:\u00a0 <\/b>Thank you, Kevin.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Highlights from this week: &nbsp; How to protect your portfolio in a relationship break up The pros and cons of the Victorian Government\u2019s affordability scheme How some auction buyers are paying more than they need to without even knowing it is happening Perfecting the \u2018dud&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":176692471,"featured_media":10916,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[10,11,13,24],"tags":[101],"class_list":["post-10915","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-kevin-turner-sponsored-channels","category-kevin-update","category-latest-story","category-shows","tag-podcast"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.5 - 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