{"id":10527,"date":"2017-02-22T01:00:36","date_gmt":"2017-02-21T14:00:36","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/realestatetalk.com.au\/?p=10527"},"modified":"2017-02-22T01:00:36","modified_gmt":"2017-02-21T14:00:36","slug":"property-industry-leader-talks-about-his-mistakes-ben-kingsley","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/channels.realty.com.au\/realtytalk\/property-industry-leader-talks-about-his-mistakes-ben-kingsley\/","title":{"rendered":"Property Industry Leader talks about his mistakes – Ben Kingsley"},"content":{"rendered":"

Property Industry leader\u00a0Ben Kingsley<\/strong>\u00a0is our feature guest this week as he talks about his earliest property investment lessons and how he nearly fell for a big mistake he now sees many investors make.\u00a0 Like so many of our past guests, Ben is very generous with the advice he gives which is drawn from his personal experiences.<\/p>\n

Transcripts:<\/strong><\/h4>\n

Kevin:<\/b>\u00a0 My featured guest this week is Ben Kingsley. Ben is the CEO and founder of Empower Wealth, and you might even know of him on his very popular podcast, which is called the Property Couch. He joins me.
\nLovely to be talking to you, Ben. Thanks very much for your time.
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 Absolute pleasure, Kevin.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Let me ask you firstly, you\u2019re a luminary in the area of property investment. I believe you\u2019re also the chair of PIPA. Is that right?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes, that\u2019s right. This industry is a growing industry. There are plenty of sharks out there, and so to be part of the peak association and to be able to help set the agenda in how we improve the professional standards of people operating and how they look after consumers is really important to me. It\u2019s just nice to be able to give back in that respect.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 A lot of leading lights on PIPA, as well. PIPA stands for\u2026?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 Property Investment Professionals of Australia. There is some real talent on there. You have Margaret Lomas, you have Damian Collins, you have Steve Waters, Phillip Tarrant, David McMillan, all of the greats, the Property Professor Peter Koulizos, just some real talented people who care about how consumers are looked after.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Of course, we\u2019re very happy to support you, too, in that endeavor and I think we\u2019ve spoken to most of those people. But, mate, I\u2019m particularly interested in talking to you, Ben, about your journey and what you\u2019ve learned along the way. Tell me about how you first got involved in property investment.
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 From a young age, I was always interested in being in a position where I could make sure that I was creating some wealth so that I could have the sort of lifestyle that I was looking for. I was brought up in a middle-class household, a hard-working father, and from that point of view, I saw that he did three jobs for 37 years and made some investments \u2013 some good ones and some bad ones and some that didn\u2019t deliver on what he was looking for. That meant that he obviously had to work those extra jobs to hit the target he was looking at.
\nFor me, it was very much around how could I be smarter and be more educated? I wanted to make sure that I controlled the money as opposed to it controlling me. I didn\u2019t want to be in a household where it changed the mood in terms of how much money we had to look after ourselves.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 We learn a lot of lessons from our parents and how they operated. I know it was a different generation, but it also I guess reminds us as parents the impact that we have on our own children and the lasting memories we can give them as well, Ben.
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 Totally, Kevin. I think it\u2019s really important that we have to be the role models. We don\u2019t fall too far from the tree, as they say. For all of those people who grew up in challenging households, they have to try and break the mold.
\nFor me, I didn\u2019t grow up in a challenging household; I grew up in a very loving household, but I also knew that where every dollar was spent was closely watched. I just wanted to make sure that there was enough to go around for everyone to be able to do what they wanted to do and to enjoy the things that we all enjoy.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 What was your first property deal? How old were you when you did it, Ben?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 I was 23. Again, I started quite young. I bought the house across the road from mom and dad. I lived in a great little court in the northern suburbs of Bunburra. I got a $10,000 inheritance from my grandfather. One of my grandfathers passed. It was that as well as I did a lot of part-time work in school holidays and so forth. As I was also in college or uni, I then was able to be in a position to secure that first property. I paid $120,000 for a three-bedroom AVJennings home in the outer suburbs of Melbourne, really not having a clue what I was doing.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Was it a new property?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 No. It was an existing property. It basically went to auction and I paid $120,000 for it.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Your parents were living across the road at the time, were they?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes, it was perfect. I could go home and have a nice feed with mom and borrow the old man\u2019s lawn mower. It worked out quite well, but I did move into the property for a while there.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 So you bought it as a principal place of residence not as an investment?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes. I originally bought it as a principal place of residence, but it was always tagged to be an investment property. The reason I think, going back, there might have been some type of concession. Certainly, the interest rate was cheaper if you had an owner-occupied property. But I only lived at the property for probably just on about nine months before I moved interstate to start my career in tourism.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Do you still own that property?
\nBen:\u00a0 <\/b>No. That one\u2026 Coming to mistakes, that\u2019s a cracker. I moved to the tourism industry and found myself working in Sydney. I went and saw an accountant who had some so-called property knowledge. I sat down with him and said, \u201cLook, this is the property I have. This is the income I\u2019m earning. What can we do here?\u201d And he said, \u201cOh, gee. That\u2019s cash flow positive. We need to sell that property and we need to get a deposit and buy one of these great off-the-plan properties here in Sydney. You\u2019ll be well-served in doing that.\u201d
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Oh, no. Goodness.
\nBenefit:<\/b>\u00a0 As an inexperienced person at that time, I\u2019m like, \u201cAll right.\u201d I\u2019m supposedly talking to someone who\u2019s in the know, and it was definitely the worst decision I think I made from a property investment point of view.
\nI think right now it\u2019s probably sitting at about a $550,000 mistake, and each year, that I don\u2019t own that property it\u2019s growing, whereas I could have quite easily released the equity out of the property in the time that I owned it an done a little cosmetic reno as well.
\nThere was a lot wrong with that, but it goes to show you when you don\u2019t know what you don\u2019t know, you can be easily led by the wrong people.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes, a lot of lessons inside that, of course. Going on to your second property, did you actually buy something off the plan? Did you follow that advice?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 Luckily, I didn\u2019t. By that stage I\u2019d gotten myself into a real interest in what I was doing and hence I was reaching out to a lot of people, going along to a lot of events. I went to hear John Edwards speak and went and heard Ed Chan speak. Also a few of the spruikers out there, I went along to a few of their seminars. You were starting to sort out the wheat from the chaff, as they say. API<\/i> magazine at the time was maybe a year or two old and I was starting to consume that on a monthly basis.
\nFortunately, I didn\u2019t follow the lead. I did look at and put a $1000 holding deposit on a two-bedroom apartment in Zetland <\/b>but decided against that one. Once I started to get an understanding of what I wanted to do and did pretty much six months of solid research, I bought a semi in Alexandria for $395,000 in 2001, and that property got bank valued four or five months ago at $1.3 million.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 I was going to ask you, you still own that one. You\u2019ve learnt that lesson, haven\u2019t you?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes. Once I started to understand more about the drivers and the things I needed to understand \u2013 but that was through literally months and months of constant research. I had scrapbooks. This was pretty much pre-Internet period around RealEstate.com.au and I was scrapbooking all of the local newspapers and documenting what sold for what, trying to work out the technical valuations of things. So there was definitely a lot of research that went into that execution.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Was that the best deal you\u2019ve ever done?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 It\u2019s up there. I have quite a few like that. I replicated the same type of thing in Flemington in 2005 for $395,000. Again, a beautiful weatherboard two-bedroom, fully renovated property in an area that\u2019s significantly gentrified since then. I suspect a bank valuation around $850,000 on that property now. That\u2019s sitting very nicely.
\nThe GFC period, Moonee Ponds, passed in auction right on the GFC at $1,050,000, and I picked that one up for $913,000. I\u2019ve renovated that one, and that one\u2019s become our principal home now. That would probably be sitting around $1.3 to $1.4 million unrenovated.
\nThe years of experience and the 10,000 hours of education and knowledge-building that I\u2019ve done over the journey have obviously put me in good stead to know when good opportunities present themselves.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Have you done any developments at all?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 No. I\u2019ve kept away from that. I\u2019ve been pretty much a passive investor \u2013 a true what I would consider the traditional investor. If I were going to invest in shares, I\u2019m not having a say in what BHP is doing; I\u2019m just a passive investor. And with my property investments, it\u2019s been very similar.
\nI\u2019ve done very little work in regards to improving the assets. I haven\u2019t put new kitchens or new bathrooms or any of those sorts of things in. I\u2019ve just let them sit. They\u2019ll need a bit of a tidy up. There\u2019ll be the odd deck and the odd fence that needs repairing, but I haven\u2019t gone into that whole equity-harvesting and that whole development space.
\nIt\u2019s probably been because I\u2019ve been a bit time-poor but also because a true investment should stand up on its own principles. If I have to value-add to it, I\u2019m taking on more risk, so effectively I should be getting a lot more reward.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Are you always looking to grow the portfolio, or are there specific times that you\u2019ll do that?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 That is a great question, Kevin. The reason why I love answering this question is more around after we had two or three in the portfolio and my wife and I were about to start thinking about starting a family, the question starts to come: how many more of these things do I need? What about the impact of cash flows with the kids and their schooling and their education? All of those things you have to start thinking about from a cash flow point of view.
\nThere was really nothing out there that could accommodate a multiple property portfolio and modeling that, so that led me to build that with Michael Pope, one of my business partners here, to be able to start answering a lot more of those questions.
\nThe answer is I\u2019ve still being active. I\u2019ve bought a couple more. I have a self-managed super fund. The strategy inside the self-managed super fund has been different strategy for my wife Jane and I in terms of how we built the portfolio, but what we\u2019re able to do by getting more understanding of the planning side of it is we set ourselves a target of $160,000 in passive income from our portfolio by the age of 50. I turn 46 this year, so that\u2019s what we\u2019re striving towards.
\nSo from that point of view, I haven\u2019t had to constantly say to myself, \u201cI need another one. I need another one. I need another one.\u201d There\u2019s probably just one more to fit in for that based on our planning. But I\u2019ll probably still buy a couple more in the self-managed super fund because I can\u2019t touch that until I\u2019m 60 or 65 the way the governments are playing with super.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Let me ask you the question this way. What sort of investor are you?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 I think a buy-hold. Other than the silly one where I was given the wrong advice to cash out and basically buy into that Sydney property, into Alexandria there, everything else has pretty much been a buy-hold. The super fund is chasing a bit more yield, but the main properties that I\u2019ve been buying have been more blue-chip type assets in the right locations around the major employment centers in the big capital cities.
\nKevin:<\/b> Would you buy overseas?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 I haven\u2019t touched the overseas market. I\u2019ve had a couple looks at America a couple of times, and my brother\u2019s put a couple of brochures across my desk in regards to Bali and Indonesia and so forth. But I\u2019ve always taken the view that as much as my portfolio is very easy to manage, they\u2019re still local assets. So if I have any problems around being able to fix up whatever it may be or difficult tenants and all that, it\u2019s a lot easier to manage in Australia than what it is offshore.
\nThat\u2019s not to say that as my knowledge and understanding of more global property markets develops that I wouldn\u2019t look at that, but I think I\u2019m a bit like Scott Keck from Charter Keck Cramer. I\u2019ve heard him speak a couple of times, and he\u2019s a ripper. He\u2019s like \u201cWhen should we start to invest in commercial property? When should we start to invest in offshore?\u201d
\nHe said once you get around the $5 million residential portfolio. I heard him say that about 13 years ago, and then I recently heard him speak about two years ago and he said once you have about a $10 million residential portfolio.
\nThat probably speaks volumes to me in terms of my portfolio, and that\u2019s certainly how I approach looking after clients. I understand that we all work hard for our money, so I\u2019m not about to speculate in markets that have very little regulation and jurisdictions and potential risk.
\nBali is an example, maybe. We saw the horrific bombings that occurred there and what happens to the marketplace there and it\u2019s a one-industry town. From that point of view I\u2019ll probably steer clear of that. I still see a great opportunities in the Australian market.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Yes. Plenty of opportunities here. What\u2019s the most common question you\u2019re asked from people who are looking at becoming property investors?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 I think that\u2019s an easy one. It\u2019s \u201cWhere\u2019s the best suburb to buy right now?\u201d
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 How do you answer that? What do you say?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 Pretty simply. It\u2019s \u201cWhat\u2019s your end game? What\u2019s your goal?\u201d That\u2019s the truth. For some people, buying a $1.5 million property is actually their best move right now. For other people who maybe have less income coming into the household, it could be a matter of two properties in a regional town that\u2019s delivering them strong cash flow and maybe a bit of capital growth along the journey.
\nI think the best way to answer that is to just understand the client a little bit better in terms of what they\u2019re trying to do, because right in that GFC period, on my credit card I could have bought 30 properties on my credit card in Detroit. For people to say, \u201cI have 35 properties, or I have 40 properties, or whatever\u201d it could mean a lot for some people. They could be 35 fantastic properties and good luck to them.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 You have to ask that question though, haven\u2019t you, really?
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 I think you do. If you have five or six really good ones that are generating income and you pay your debt down and each property is generating you $30,000 or $40,000 a year in income, that is a very handsome retirement that you\u2019re going to enjoy with that type of income.
\nKevin:<\/b>\u00a0 Always great talking to you, Ben. I appreciate your time. Ben Kingsley, my guest, the CEO and founder of Empower Wealth.
\nGreat talking to you, Ben. All the best, mate.
\nBen:<\/b>\u00a0 Thanks, Kevin. Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Property Industry leader\u00a0Ben Kingsley\u00a0is our feature guest this week as he talks about his earliest property investment lessons and how he nearly fell for a big mistake he now sees many investors make.\u00a0 Like so many of our past guests, Ben is very generous with…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":176692471,"featured_media":10536,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[33,10,11,13,36,25],"tags":[101],"class_list":["post-10527","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-case-studies-topic","category-kevin-turner-sponsored-channels","category-kevin-update","category-latest-story","category-property-investment-topic","category-sponsored-channels","tag-podcast"],"yoast_head":"\nProperty Industry Leader talks about his mistakes - Ben Kingsley - Realty Talk<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/channels.realty.com.au\/realtytalk\/property-industry-leader-talks-about-his-mistakes-ben-kingsley\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Property Industry Leader talks about his mistakes - 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